Holy Shit!! With Nate & Esha
A beginners guide to spiritual awakening, the metaphysical, unconditional love and all things "whoo whoo". Told from the perspective an average dude and a majestic shaman. ;)
Holy Shit!! With Nate & Esha
Episode 5 - Our Thoughts & Attachments
In this episode, Nate & Esha discuss the process of navigating our busy minds and lives. From the practice of not identifying with the 1,000's of thoughts that fill our head each day, to how simply not being attached to specific outcomes and relationships could lead to the liberation you've been looking for.
Welcome everybody to another episode of Holy Shit with Nate and Esha. We are so happy to have you here joining us once again this week. Hope that you're all doing well. And Nate, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_02:I'm good. I'm good. Yeah, I'm glad we had a little week off there in between the last one, and I was I was itching to get back on here and get another episode in. I'm anxious to talk about today's topic.
SPEAKER_00:How are you feeling?
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I think there's a lot, a lot, a lot of energy shifting around right now in the world. And uh, you know, depending on whatever way the world you view of things, it's it's it's a lot of a lot of stuff floating around. So I'm kind of I'm kind of a little bit tired right now, but um yeah, I'm getting it. I'm I'm I'm I'm I've I've felt a lot better before, and I also felt a lot worse. So as far as that that goes, I'm I'm fine.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I get it. I've been having like really weird dreams these past couple of nights and lots of uh different energetic waves that are passing through. So there's definitely something floating around in the ether that I'm just keeping my awareness on, but not getting attached to any of it, which is actually gonna lead into our conversation today. But I wanted to um before we even got started, I wanted to invite uh both of us and and our listeners too, before we got into conversation, to just take a moment to pause and drop into our bodies and connect with our breaths. How does that sound? Good, yeah, yeah. So let's do it. So um, wherever you are, wherever you are listening to this, um take a moment to pause to connect to your body, to be here now, and to breathe, to take an arriving breath, to breathe into your body, to arrive into your body, to arrive into this moment, and whatever that may feel like, give yourself permission to feel it, and also give yourself permission to let it go. And we arrive with our breath, we arrive with our body, and we ground into this present moment. Let's take a nice deep in breath in and exhale out and just release any tension from our shoulders, jaw, and just loosen up. So Nate India.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, all right.
SPEAKER_00:So it's been a couple weeks since I've come back from India, and this has been my second time in India. Um flew into Chennai, and uh we pretty much did the whole. I met a group there. Uh it was nine of us that decided to brave uh going to India on this little uh pilgrimage that we were on, which was to go and visit all the uh Shiva temples and um Ramana Maharashi uh ashram. And um, and this was the first time I went to India was 10 years ago. And I was in North India and and a part of South Indian Pune. Um, this part of India was was very different and and not so different. Um but one of the things that I found in anytime I think you go to India is how it grabs your senses. You know, um sometimes we are stuck in traffic here in the US and we think it's the worst traffic ever. And then you go to a place like India, and then it all gets put into perspective. It's like, oh my god, what was I complaining about?
SPEAKER_01:Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:And so this sense of grab and the senses, it's it's it's so colorful because you're you're your hearing is like to the max, you're the you're what you're seeing, what you're smelling, like everything is activated uh when you go to India. And um and one of the the pieces that kept popping up for me is can I still allow myself to be here now? Um, like Ram Da says, without being so distracted by the chaos all around me.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Right? Well, because yeah, it's the it's it's a shock to your system, so it makes you want to focus on that, you know, instead of focusing on being present. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And it took me, I think, I want to say maybe a good two days for my whole nervous system to uh rebalance itself. And the way it rebalanced it, rebalanced itself was me giving myself permission to say, it's okay to be here, it's okay to experience this. So this sense of full acceptance with what is and what was at that time was really what got my nervous system to actually come back into a place of alignment.
SPEAKER_02:I've I've felt the exact same way the first couple times that this country boy traveled to New York City for the first time and saw all the craziness in the traffic. And it was like, yeah, it was like things were moving at a new rate of speed, so my body had to catch up to what was normal again to be able to relax around that rate of speed. So um, and then when I would come back home, it would feel like things were moving so slow for a couple days.
SPEAKER_00:That's right, that's right. Go ahead.
SPEAKER_02:I was just saying, no, I totally understand. I've not been, I haven't been to India, but I understand the the transition.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, I grew up in New York City, so I know exactly what you're talking about. Um, but New York and India are two different beasts, right?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:You know, in New York you have traffic lights, um, and people wait their turn and and you go, but in India, it's like everyone is going at the same time.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, you observe and you're like, how are they doing that? Like, how is this actually happening? And not once did we actually see an accident happening, which was like really freaky. It's like, how did that even not happen? And so it's it reminded me, just watching it, it reminded me seeing this this traffic pattern of people going straight, people making left and right turns, people making new turns. It's all happening at the same time. And it reminded me of our thoughts, right? Like when we have a thought, it's like then a branch comes off that one thought, and then it goes this way, and then another branch goes that way. And before you know it, we have all of these different streams of thoughts.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely, right?
SPEAKER_00:Not knowing, well, where did the first one begin? And now how many stories have I created within my mind off of this one thought? Yeah, yeah. So I thought that was pretty powerful, just stepping back to to observe, to just to observe it, and then to really link that back to my own self in terms of is this what my mind is like sometimes?
SPEAKER_02:I guarantee it. That sounds that sounds like my mind sometimes, so I'm sure. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I I think it's all of our minds, right? Because here in the West, we have not really been, we haven't been taught how to um sort of corral the mind, right? Because uh it's not something, you know, they teach um mathematics, science, um, English, language here in schools. But what they don't teach is is how do I subdue this mind where the mind is not controlling me. We don't teach our children that. We don't teach our children that they're not their thoughts, right? We don't teach our children how to create balance in the mind, right? How to quiet and still the mind. And I think we're really missing out on something very important here, especially with our young people that are so inundated with their technology and with social media and what they see and what they read, and then how they are extrapolating that in their thought patterns, and and what is that information? Um, what is that doing to their minds? How is it being perceived in their mind, right? And as we know, they had research that came out lately about the uh the health of teenage girls in this country, and the data isn't good, right? Yeah, suicide rates are up, depression is up, uh health issues are up for teenage girls, and and um it's like at what point are we going to actually get the message that something different has to be done in how we approach what real education is, right? Um, so anyway, I don't want to get off tangent, but going back to you know, how do we um bring a sense of of focus into um how we approach this mind and what we attach with this mind.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Yeah, no, I think I think the and we wanna I want to talk with you more about the attachment piece, but I I do think that there's you you said something that is critical that is kind of goes hand in hand with the non-attachment piece, is the is that the we are not our thoughts piece. Because I know one of the things that I experienced a lot with my own journey of awakening is being not only that we are not our thoughts, but being attached to my thoughts and the thought processes and all of the conditioning and that kind of thing. And um, you know, just because your brain is telling you that you should do something or want to do something or need to do something, but your heart is telling you something different, it doesn't mean that you are your brain. More nine times out of ten or a hundred times out of a hundred, it's your heart is more probably leading you in the right direction, and that's where you should go. And and and you don't really notice that the the the we are not our thoughts discussion doesn't even become relevant until your heart starts to pull you in another direction. Exactly. And that's part of what we're talking about, is that that awakening piece is is when your heart starts to waken up and says, Whoa, that's not that's not me.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Can I be a part of this conversation too? Right? Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And and and then and then you start to go in the dance between the mind and the heart and the soul, and and then you start to understand a little bit better that, yeah, you are not your thoughts. And um sometimes it it um when I remember when I remember the first time that I heard that, um it might have been Ram Das, which you know, like I know I keep bringing him up, but uh he's he's he's been in my hip pocket this entire journey with me. Um and always seems to find a nugget, a quote or something that that hits home right when you need it. And I remember him saying that. And you know, he he also was so transparent with his own journey that he went in he went into a discussion about all of the types of now. This at this point in time, he was a holy man and had been a respected, you know, um yogi for years, for years, yeah, yeah, of sorts, uh, but um was very transparent about the crazy thoughts that would come in and out of his head. And I, you know, I don't even know that there was a whole lot of people that weren't on this path that would admit some of the thoughts that he said that he had from time to time. But the fact that he was that open about it, it was just very freeing, I thought, for every because we all have just like the normal stuff that comes in and out, and then there's like a zinger here, and then you're like, what the hell was that? And then I'll back, you know, and then so I get it. Um, and uh for him to be that open about it, um, it was very uh disarming for the whole thought process to say, okay, I'm not the only one here dealing with, you know, battling my own thoughts, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Well, you know, this brings up something very personal and private for me, um, this whole conversation. Because after Hassel died, and you know, he he my husband died very suddenly, and it kind of it really put me in a in a very deep uh sent me in some in a deep abyss um where it was really hard to climb out of. But I ended up um the the experience that that sudden loss jolted me um to it it it short circuit my system and so I ended up with PTSD. Now, here I am uh a yoga teacher, someone who'd been practicing yoga for years, never had, never really had an anxiety attack or panic attack. I didn't know what any of that stuff was. And so here I am now, uh uh just propelled into this new world and I have PTSD. And I'm feeling all of these uh sensations in my head, but I'm also having these very dark, vicious, psychotic thoughts, right? It freaked me out, right? And I would have such dark thoughts even about my children, even about people that I cared about, right? And and and I'm glad we're talking about it because this gives me an opportunity to to really be transparent, um, as as you were talking about, because I think when we have PTSD and we have those types of thoughts, there's a level of shame that we feel even about having those thoughts.
SPEAKER_01:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um but what the thing that I did have, the tool that I did have, because I was a yoga teacher, was this constant um bringing myself back to the present moment and constantly saying, okay, I just had that thought. It was, and I was judging it, yes. I'm like, that was a really dark thought, but I am I am not that. That's that's not who I am. I'm not that thought. I'm not my thought. And this was what I kept repeating and repeating and repeating to myself. Um, and that combined with keep pulling myself back to the present moment, like constantly. No, come back here, be here, be here, touch my body. Okay, I'm safe, I'm sound. And and and this was part of what helped me to come out of PTSD was I I didn't attach myself with the thought, or I didn't allow myself to create an identification with the dark thoughts that I were having. Was it still scary to feel it and and have those thoughts? Yes. Was it uh debilitating at times? Absolutely. But I would have the experience, I felt it, and I said, I can't, I cannot attach to these thoughts because the moment I do that, I'm lost.
SPEAKER_02:Right. Well, I I I hope our listeners understand the the level of vulnerability and transparency that it takes for you to be that honest about it, because it you we've had this discussion before because um I was going through, you know, I don't even know what you want to call it, uh, dark night of the soul or whatever about a year ago. And I was pretty much bedridden for about a week and a half, and pretty much house-ridden for about a month because I my my nervous system was so overloaded. I was having panic attacks left and right, and and in the midst of those, which I had never had before either. Um, you know, there's a whole lot of potential medical reasons behind why this could be happening, but the doctors were kind of stunned as to as to what that. But I think, you know, after you and I have talked, you know, you've you've experienced something similar in your awakening journey. And I'm not saying it's gonna be the same for everybody, but in the midst of it, it it got it could get pretty pretty heavy and pretty dark. And um, and I just I thank God that you were there for me to chat with because I was able to kind of tell you, hey, you know, why I'm in the midst of one of these panic attacks, this is what my my mind's going all over the place, and this is crazy. And you're like, oh yeah, that's happened to me. And just just the fact that you were like that open and sharing with me, it like it took the weight of the world that I'm like, I'm I'm different here, I'm the one that's broken, there's something wrong with me. And it took it and just like shattered me. And it was just it made what was happening so much more digestible. Um, and you know, that phase passed, and I hope that I never have to deal with that again. But if I do, so be it. We've been there before, right? Um that's right. I mean, um anyway, yeah. I mean, and and you know, and and you, you know, you might be experiencing some some some things, some, some, some, some thoughts and phases and stuff, and you might not have PTSD. It could be just you know, just something that happens because it's uh a Tuesday at three o'clock and somebody cuts you off in traffic. You know, I mean, you know, it it's it's it's just part of being a human being and having a mind that um is kind of can can operate. So but you know, what you said there, and I think that the key and you know, kind of segue into the other part of this discussion that I want to have is is the only reason that our thoughts bother us is because we're attached to them. That's right. If we had no attachment to our thought process whatsoever, and we just viewed it from as Ramda says, like the witness perspective, to where that's right, you've got your body and your soul, and you're sitting there watching this from as a witness.
SPEAKER_03:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:And I know this sounds for most this for most people that this is this is the first time you ever heard this concept. It's it's it's a tactic to really understand that we are not our bodies, we are not our minds. Um, our soul is something separate, and our and that we are able to, if you're able, and be and proof of that is that is that we're able to view this as a witness. If we were our bodies and were our minds, we would not be able to view ourselves from a third party. And I know we've all we've all had that inner dialogue with ourselves where we're having this conversation with ourselves about ourselves. Absolutely, and you're talking about yourself to yourself like it's the third party. So anyway, and and but the point is that if when you're able to step out of this this suit that we're all wearing, this this role that we're all carrying, and really detach from that, it it makes the the the the the process of trying to not be attached to your thoughts so much simpler.
SPEAKER_00:Um yeah, a hundred percent, right? And and and for me, it's um of course, you know, we've all been there, right? It's not like you and I we just oh yeah, we just arrived here. This has been you know years of of practice, right? So it it requires practice. And um I'm still not good enough. Well, it's yeah, it's it's daily, it's daily practice, and I want our listeners to definitely know that it's not that we've reached some you know perfected state with this, you know, we're alive, we have a thinking brain, it shoots off thoughts uh in milliseconds, you know. Uh and and but the the key is is awareness. Yeah, what is my level of awareness now in the present moment to realize that when one thought pops up, is it just a a single thought popping up, or is it a thought and then I'm linking another thought to that thought and then I'm linking another thought? So this is what becomes a problem. And I was listening to Jason Gregory, who was a philosopher, he talks about this, and I watched his YouTube video on this, and he said thoughts alone by themselves are not the problem. He said, is when we begin to link these thoughts together that they become a problem because now we're creating that identification with them, and we're now beginning to spin stories about this thought. And so if you can visualize, um uh it's kind of like a virus, right? It's like one virus comes up and then it begins to proliferate, right? And now you have a mass of of things of of of different viruses or the same viruses that's that's proliferated to uh a bigger, like it's mushroom. And then it's like, oh my god, where did I go? Now I'm spinning, right? It's now it becomes spin, and we don't know where we started, and we don't even know where the end is with that thought. And going back to your point, it's like I go back to what are we teaching our kids in school? Like, what are the tools that we're actually giving them to actually be able to stand in this life in a balanced way, right? Because we're not telling them that they're not their bodies, right? I mean, yes, we're having an experience of being in of having a body, great. Um, but the identification, and you can look in pop culture and we can see this massive identification with just the body, right? And then the same with the thoughts and this idea that this is all that I am, it's not all that we are, because when we die, we gotta return this garment to the dressmaker, it goes back to God, right? So we can't take our thoughts with us, we can't take the body with us, we can't even take our traumas with us, none of it is going, right? It all has to stay, it all has it all dissolves here, right? And so how do we then practice this moving uh from attachment to non-attachment?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it's um well, we talked about it briefly in the in the last episode. Uh it was it was a brief statement, I think, as Lenny was talking about kind of the way he perceives his life life um instances and the checkpoints, and he talked about how you know he didn't try to get too involved in the playing to 70,000 people or whatnot. But what we talked about in that moment was is that it's that expectation or aka that attachment to an outcome or that attachment to some a belief. Our beliefs that we have are attachments, you know, that's right. Um relationships that we have are attachments. That's right. Um, thought processes that we have are attachments, routines are attachments, habits are attachments, um, addictions, um all of the all all of pretty much everything that we do is an attachment. Um, but the biggest one and the easiest one to really explain is your expectation of something, right? You're you're you're anchoring in into the expectation of something specific happening, and when that doesn't happen, it causes suffering.
SPEAKER_03:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:So you know Buddha Buddha was saying he said the root of all suffering is attachment. And really, if you it it sounds it's a very simple sentence statement, but it's such it's so complex once you start peeling back the layers. Because you sit here and you start to think about okay, well, let's examine that for a second. So if I'm not attached to my thoughts and I can just think whatever I want to think, and they just come and go, and it's not it's not about thinking whatever you want to think, but it's about as they flow through your brain, they're like clouds, and you don't really you see them and they just kind of keep floating by. You're not really attached to them. It's about yes, I am a husband, a father, a man, um, a podcaster, or whatever, but also not being attached to all of those things. You know, my name is Nate, but I'm also not being attached to those things, and I'm I'm doing all of these things. But the point is that if you're able to sit into that and you start peeling back that layer and you think that I have no expectations. Now, here's here here's this is where this is gonna come into because this is the this is the discussion about spirituality that is so uh it's not about being a nihilist and not caring about anything. That's right.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, I'm so glad you said that to clarify because that's exactly what people will think.
SPEAKER_02:It's not about not caring, so there's this beautiful dance between caring and participating, that's right, also and also participating with your fullest, loving with your fullest, yes, but also not being attached. And it sounds like an oxymoron, it sounds like an impossibility, but that's the game.
SPEAKER_00:That is the game, it's paradoxical.
SPEAKER_02:It's it is, and it's it's it's it's it's aggravating to a sense in the beginning, and even still to me, because but like when you're able to even have glimpses of that beautiful like line to walk on, it's that yin-yang, right? It's that perfect balance of participation and buying in to being to this incarnation, to being this person, to being this role, but also not being attached. So the point is if you can think about things in your life to where if you really truly honestly could not have any attachment to any person, to any outcome, to anything, you just lived in the moment and let whatever happened happen. That is the most uh I guess uh beautiful, uh easy way of existence possible. And that's what the Buddha is trying to say. He's saying if you're unattached to anything, then it's it's that's what that's what a perfect life looks like in a sense of not being attached. There's no there's no pain or suffering.
SPEAKER_00:Right, man, I gotta tell you, like, yeah, as you're talking about that, what's coming up for me is like, shit, I could have avoided so much unnecessary suffering and prior prior relationships, right? Like specifically, I remember like you know, the first guy I fell in love with, and and we dated for a couple years, and and then he, you know, he was a musician and he was a singer, and um, and then his group was kind of taken off and and uh and he broke up with me. Can I tell you, I was so crushed. It was like my first major heartbreak. I think I was 21 years old, and um, I just went into like this depressed mode, and you know, and then I wanted to get him back, and because I was so attached to how I felt when I was with him, the relationship. And and it took me a minute to like gather myself and like, what are you doing? Like, because I kept wanting to go back, which was unhealthy for me, but it was the attachment that I had to that relationship, to him, like this attachment that, oh, it's this person that makes me feel this way, and I'm not with him anymore, and I'm no longer feeling this way. So I have to get back to that point A in order to feel this way again. Yeah, and so I I I connected him, I attached in my mind that it was him, he was the reason why I felt so good. Right. And so, like, as you mentioned, that I was like, yeah, that would have come in so handy when I was 21. And at the same time, I needed to have that experience as well.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but you know what you just said is it's perfect for this next portion because while I'm sitting here saying that listen, and I'm also not saying that attachment is bad, there is no good and bad, there just is, right? So I'm not saying attachment is bad because it serves us. When you start to awaken and you start to view attachment for what it is, it's a beautiful thing because it is a spotlight on the things that we probably need to work on. So when you said a second ago, you were like, I felt when he left that like I I there's this like this thing that he made certain way he made me feel, all right? Like, and you mentioned you mentioned this in in the podcast when you first when you first started talking about your awakening, you and you told your husband that you no longer have an obligation to love me anymore. That's what we're talking about here. It's the fact that we are not attached to someone else's ability to make us feel good. Good about ourselves, right? So once you start to love yourself, it then unlocks your ability to not be attached to anybody else, right? So and in the midst of in the midst of that relationship, um, if we would have been able to have the insight at the moment to when so anytime that you anytime that you're living life and you experience some some element of pain or suffering or discomfort, it's coming from your attachment to something, whether it be the way somebody makes you feel or the way you know that you you would hope that this was going to happen and it didn't. And then you can look in the mirror and really start to reverse engineer that thing back to you and say, What's my expectation here? And furthermore, even one more, one, two or three more steps back inside and say, What's causing me to have this expectation?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, yes, that's the self-inquiry that we do to move ourselves into out of that, right? And so part of it, you know, like when we broke up, it's like, oh, I don't have love anymore. And so I associated him with love, not realizing that wait a minute, love could never leave me because that's who I am, right? Right? It's like so a man could leave, right? Like someone in my life can leave, but that's not love leaving me, that's just somebody leaving me, but I'm still rooted in my love. And so, you know, so much of not just that old relationship, but even with Hassel passing, I had to look at my level of attachment also to the marriage, to my husband. And I had to, it forced me to look even deeper. You talk about spotlighting. It really spotlighted for me personally my level of codependency. Right. And this is something that you know is very vulnerable and fragile to talk about because a lot of people don't want to talk about these things sometimes because it's it's it's that vulnerable soft spot um for us. But this was also part of in my grieving journey that I really had to come face to face with. It's like, okay, how much of my life am I actually owning and taking full responsibility for?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And you know, in this sense of wow, I was really codependent with my husband.
SPEAKER_02:Oh yeah. Right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. And we don't see because we're in the mix of it, right? So we don't see it.
SPEAKER_02:You've never, if you've never, if you've never been challenged to think that maybe the pro maybe the reason that I'm feeling bad here is me. Yeah. Especially in the West, we're so quick to blame other people that's right, take on the role of the victim and say, you made me feel this way because I do this thing.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:There is so much thing. So I heard somebody say something the other day. It says every time you point the finger at somebody, there's four fingers pointing back. Actually, three, three and a thumb, right? Three and a thumb. Right, but I mean, and that's the truth, right? And and there's so much freedom in that. Uh, and I'm not saying that there isn't some level of like somebody doing you dirty or whatnot. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm saying when we're talking that when we're attached to a person and and for some reason that a relationship ends, or that person doesn't show up like we thought that they should, and we feel a certain way about it. 99% of the time, all of that can be fixed with just a snap of the fingers when we realize that it's us putting that weight on them and ourselves for them to perform in a certain way because there's something lacking in us.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. Yeah, and that really then becomes our work, right? And so, you know, I I some of the clients that I work with, we take a look at triggers, and I'm like, when you get triggered, I want you to know, right? Like, step into it with a different sense of awareness instead of blaming someone for triggering you, this is your opportunity. Oh, I have work to do because that's all a trigger. A trigger is just revealing that, oh, there's something in me that needs healing. Because if right, and so, and that's what I I take it all as opportunity. If I get triggered, I was like, oh shit, I'm about to level up. There's something that I need to go in and do some self-inquiry about, and let's go, let's let's do this. And and I'll end up telling that I was like, Thank you, thank you for being a teacher. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, every single time somebody puts you in a situation, it it's like they're helping you free yourself.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:If you take it as that and you do the work, right? You know, and and and listen, and it's not listen, as as far as relationships are saying, we're not saying that like just love yourself and you don't need to have any relationships with anybody else. We're not saying that at all. We're saying that like how much better of a partner can you be if you're not reliant on someone else to make you feel good about yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely, right?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely, and and really that's all we're talking about here is that most people show up how they feel they need to show up, and sometimes that way doesn't check the boxes of the other person's expectations. And then they and and then and once again it's someone's attachment to how they feel the other person should show up and expectation, and then and then they get into this massive, massive whatever trying to okay, well, why let's analyze, but the analyzing the analyzing usually is our trying to analyze why does that person do this to me? Why does why does she or he react this way in these circumstances when really if we switched it around, once again, notwithstanding that there are situations where people totally are not behaving properly, I'm not justifying it. Absolutely, but what I am saying that m the majority of these types of situations, if you just look back anywhere and says, Why is that my expectation for them to do that? Yeah, um, it's so free. And that that goes with you know your job, your your role at your job, it goes with relationships with other people, it goes with your you know how you how you show up with your kids. Um everything. Everything, every single thing in this life. I mean, um and once again, like I said, there I I'm still trying to, I'm still trying to integrate this balance between not caring and non-attachment, or or caring, caring unconditional love, but also non-attachment.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and I think that that's it. I it what what I what I want to remind people here with this is for me the the attachment, non-attachment, it creates to to enter into any relationship with anyone, be it your lover, your your child, whoever, the dog, what whoever, it's what the non-attachment does, what it brings into that relationship is spaciousness. Spaciousness to and another word for spaciousness can be freedom, um, for that individual to be themselves without us wanting them to be something for us, right? So it is this sense of unconditional um movement of I'm recognizing you as a sovereign sacred being as I recognize that within myself. And in this relationship, there is a lot of breath and spaciousness and freedom for you to be that, right? And I think that that is where we can really begin to drop into unconditional love, right? Like what is the definition of unconditional love versus this condition love that we have for each other? Well, I'll love you if you do it, did it, right? X, Y, Z, blah, blah, blah.
unknown:Right.
SPEAKER_00:Um, and so the the non-attachment is really bringing us closer to the sacredness of ourselves. It brings us closer to God, in my opinion, um, in in any relationship, because we're recognizing the other as another sacred being, not as someone that's actually there to perform you any any uh uh service.
SPEAKER_02:Right, right. To make you feel better about yourself or whatever, to make you feel better about yourself.
SPEAKER_00:That's that's your role. And part of this is oh, I need to take responsibility for my emotional body, my emotional self. I am responsible for loving me.
SPEAKER_02:You know, what's crazy is I I heard I heard someone say something one time, and I might have read this in a book, and it like it might it blew my mind, and I think it's spot on with saying that a lot of us are confused about what love is sometimes. And we think that love is when someone makes us someone else makes us feel good, you know, like we get we get attached, we get attached to that feeling that someone else makes us have, and then we assume that that's love. Love, right, you know, and um I'm not saying that like when you love somebody they don't make you feel good or vice versa, but it's it's deeper than that, you know.
SPEAKER_00:It is much deeper than that. Um, and I think for most people or even considering marriage, you you have to pause and you know, and it's like, well, for me, the way I see it, and I and I've had a lot of sessions with couples with this, it's it's what are your expectations of me in terms of are you expecting me to love you? Right? It's like, well, do you love yourself? Like these ought to be conversations in premarital counseling.
SPEAKER_01:Sure.
SPEAKER_00:Because, you know, you get married and then there's so much weight one person is holding up and and loving not just themselves, but the other person too. But if you have two individuals that come together already whole, right? Loving themselves, um, uh, and then just coming in to share that, you have a relationship that is balanced.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I completely agree. The last thing I want to touch on really quick here, too, is attachment to your role, role attachment. I think this is a big one, especially for for everybody, for for fathers, for mothers, for for men as the provider of the family, for women, um, as the mother. Um and you know, and it's it's a hurdle that as you start to awaken, you're going to you're going to dance with it. It's going to happen. Because there's going to be this awakening that says, that that's yes, that's me in this our in in this incarnation, for sure. Yes, that's that's that's that's that's me here this time, but that's really not me. Right? That's right. When you're when your soul starts talking to you, like you're like, wait a second, why do I feel and there's an element of guilt that comes along with it, right? Yes. So I mean, I mean, you might be able to speak better to that, but I know as a mother, but for me, like there's this there's this piece of me that wants to say no matter no matter what happens, um, this is all like it's it's all gonna be fine. It's fine, it's everything, everything is already perfect, right? And and I get into that, I can be meditating and I can get into that loving space, and I'm like, this is just this is great. I mean, this is just great. And then I come back out and I'm like, oh yeah, I've got a mortgage and these bills to pay and all of this other stuff, right? So that's that that's that dance. That's that dance between in the role but also being not attached to it. So right.
SPEAKER_00:It's interesting. There's a quote here from um uh Ramana Maharashi that actually speaks to that. Um let me see if I can find it. Um give me one second here. Um he says if one keeps fixed in the self, the activities will still go on and their successes will not be affected. One should not have the idea that one is a doer. The activities will still go on. That force, by whatever name you may call it, God or whatever, which brought the body into existence, will see to it that the activities which this body is meant to go through are brought about.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So once again, once again, that that that feeling that you get that there's nothing to worry about is actually true. That's that's that's that's the point. It's just let it happen. We we try we are so attached to being in control with everything that it's hard to let go.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I I love this. I love this. It's like it's rich conversation, it's it's uh it's it's truth speaking.
SPEAKER_02:Um, and I know this concept can be so very difficult for so many people, especially if it's brand new, like the first time your your ears are receiving this information, and your brain is gets all your mind gets all twisted up in knots, like what, what, really, what for me it wasn't what what it was what it was but but but but but but like that like I remember having this conversation the first couple times and people would be like yeah but yeah but yeah but this yeah but and no it's this is this is the way this is the way this is the way and and it is it is and and and I I think in it's it's it's simple but not easy.
SPEAKER_00:That's right, that's right.
SPEAKER_02:The simplicity of it is beautiful, and it's just the fact to give yourself fully to the role but don't be attached to it. Yeah, give yourself fully to the relationship, but don't be attached to it.
SPEAKER_00:Right. It's it's like, oh, I'm gonna participate fully in this dance, but I know I'm not the dance.
SPEAKER_02:Exactly. Exactly.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Participation, yeah, it's required.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it is absolutely required, and and it's the point of it's the point of our it's the point of our being here. Um, and um I think this is a perfect jumping off point here because I think we've gave it, we've given enough nuggets for people to chew on for a while, and I'm sure that we'll have a lot of this I like this one. We went we went, I think, a little deeper this time than we traditionally do.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:I like these. I I mean I'm I'm I'm I'm all for I'm all for continued episodes in the future for just introduction of new topics, and but I I did like the deep dive into this a little bit better. And and and what when I say deep dive, this was this was like one level of one million of one um the first level of a million levels into this because um you know, and we are uh it's it's we are we are trying to to navigate that journey ourselves, and I just love that we've got an opportunity to come in and just kind of spotlight a little bit on these these levels that we've already stumbled through, you know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and if I if I can give our listeners one little tip uh to take away before we close out our show, um is that take let let a seed be planted, don't try to figure it all out right now, right? If you notice yourself resistant, um that that's the mind, right? So just receive the seed and just let it sit and let it let it germinate in a way that'll that it's going to do just naturally. But the resistance is will show you that, oh, okay, my my mind, my ego is resisting this because it doesn't, I don't quite understand it. And it's not necessary about understanding it, but just being curious enough about what is this attachment and non-attachment, and then doing a little self-inquiry with yourself. Maybe asking yourself, hey, um, what am I attached to? And how would I feel if this thing was no longer here, or what would be my response? What would be my suffering level? Just start to do some self-inquiry with yourself and see how things go.
SPEAKER_02:I love that.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Homework assignment for listeners.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, guys. Um, I um I think that's it for today. That should be it. I have anything else?
SPEAKER_00:I do not. I am complete.
SPEAKER_02:Okay. I'm working on it. Thanks, guys. We'll see you on the next one. Appreciate y'all. Bye, everyone. Bye.