Holy Shit!! With Nate & Esha
A beginners guide to spiritual awakening, the metaphysical, unconditional love and all things "whoo whoo". Told from the perspective an average dude and a majestic shaman. ;)
Holy Shit!! With Nate & Esha
Episode 8 - Bill Wilder - " Finding your Inner Fire!"
In this Episode Nate & Esha speak with Bill Wilder. Bill is a wonderful healer, therapist and entrepreneur. Bill owns and operates the Wilder Wellness Center in Mooresville, NC. Bills work and teachings have impacted the lives of both Nate and Esha and discuss how Bills methods can help "Light the Inner Fire" in each of us!
www.wilderwellnesscenter.com
Hey everybody, welcome to episode eight of the Holy Shit with Nate and Esher Podcast. Excited for today's episode. I've got a good friend of mine, Bill Wilder, on who, if you've listened to past episodes, you know uh this this guy uh was a game changer for me, his programs and his methodologies that he's come up with. And ultimately it was a journey to his facility in North Carolina that um I met Esha and had some amazing breakthroughs at. So um I've been looking forward to this podcast since we started it because I can't wait to get my buddy Bill back on here and chat about uh everything that he does. Um, and um Bill, welcome, man. Thank you. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_03:Welcome, Bill. I'm doing good. I'm excited for today as well because it's it feels like we're coming full circle, right? Um, it's been a couple years. It you know, time has done this this wicked thing where it seemed so long ago and yet it wasn't. So Bill, remind me when we started um when you opened up the Wilder Center.
SPEAKER_01:It was almost three, it was about three years ago.
SPEAKER_03:Almost three years ago, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So late Nate came about a little a little over two and a half years ago here.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right. Yeah. So this is like a anniversary, yeah. Yeah, so it's like a full circle. Um coming back to sort of like the beginning of Nate and Esha and Bill. And um, and so excited for what Bill is gonna share because I think so much of the medicine that he has created um is medicine to real help us ground us into um who we are, remembering who we are, um, the aspects of ourselves that um we might be missing or fragmented, and how to bring all of those pieces back to the whole. And, you know, working with you, Bill, for those uh two years, I think, um was really enlightening for me in many ways. And so I'm just stoked that we get to share some of this with our audience today. Yeah. But happy because it's warm outside, right? It's we finally got some sun, it's about 80-something degrees today. And um, yeah, so I'm gonna enjoy the heck out of today. How are you doing, Nate?
SPEAKER_02:I'm good. Yeah, I I uh this is this this week, I think with just like you, it's been has been crazy from like an energetic standpoint. There's a lot of a lot of stuff going on, a lot of shifting going on, and the more in tune you get with that, the more that you're kind of at the mercy of uh what's going on in the in the ether. So it's been a it's been a crazy little week this week, but uh I feel good. Um I but I do feel good. So Bill, man, I mean, uh let's just jump right into it, man. I uh I will we'll start briefly. Um I just kind of like um we'll go into a little bit about how we how we met and then that kind of stuff. But what I really like to do when we get started on these podcasts is what intrigues me is is your initial awakening journey, what like what led you like before, during, and after, kind of where you landed and where you're at now. But you know, can you can you give us a little bit of insight of um the origin the origin story of of Build Wilder and where where you came from and your awakening and all that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you know, I've been on a long journey. I'm a Tennessee boy like you, Nate. And uh I I grew up in the Christian faith and was was very serious about it. I I I I was uh I became a Christian when I was an 18. Then I went on a journey where I became like in high school, I was very into like sports. I was obsessed with sports. I wanted to be the best athlete. And then in my 20s, I wanted to become the best Christian. And so that that had led me into um becoming very involved in campus ministry. And then I went right to seminary down in Jackson, Mississippi, an extremely conservative seminary. Yeah. Um, and and I got I did five years there. And that was a uh that was a time that kind of formed the foundations of a lot of what I've become today. Um I I dove really deep into into conservative Christian theology and and I found that it it wasn't really working for me. It was almost a blessing that I went so deep, I went to the to the deep end of it because I it forced me to assess my theology, my philosophy at a more deeper level. And I remember when I was studying, I came across this quote that really shifted my whole study program. It was that our anthropology shapes all of our theology and all of our psychology. And so I became obsessed with understanding people, and not just people from a from a psychology perspective, but like who are people, where do we come from? And so I base a lot of my study on that, and that that um that beginning in my 20s has led me to where I am today. And it's led me on a journey through the doors of conservativism into agnosticism into atheism and then back to spirituality after a long journey. And it and this this quest of of trying to understand the psyche led me to to uh become very uh very into this thing called internal family systems. It's one of the probably the most popular therapy models around today that people talk about. But back back when I was trained in it in seminary, it wasn't popular, and I base all my training on that. And so the basic the basic idea is that we have these different pieces, different parts of who we are, and that we need to to bring balance to those. And then when we do have balance, then we can become more more self self-led or more spirit-led. Yeah, and so my but my my frustration with that model is it kept me in my head, and I did about gosh, probably about 15 years of intensive therapy, but I found that there were limits to to traditional psychotherapy. It led me into circles where I would just chase trauma, I would chase cognitions, but I didn't really ever make changes, and I kept getting into codependent relationships, kept making the same mistake, and I found that, and then so later in my later in my mid-30s, I'm 45 now, actually turned 45 yesterday. Oh, happy birthday, man. My birthday's my birthday's next week. I didn't realize we were both April babies. And so, like when I was in my mid-30s, I started to really do a deep dive into doing a kind of meta-frameworks where I was like studying anthropology, mythology, developmental theory, and I and I and I I cracked open a code that exists across all these disciplines of history as well. I study history, the humanities, and I really used more of an artist approach to theory versus more of a scientific one, which so I would I would look for themes, and then I I found that in all my journey through through through the doors of conservatism, liberalism, atheism, science, I found that there were these four, these four archetypes, these four pieces that we need all four to be fully operational to find balance and happiness and joy. But most people, here's the human dilemma. Most people have two that probably overfunction and two that probably underfunction. So there's a bit of a, if you do a seesaw, like you've got a bit of an imbalance in your seesaw. So what I do now is I th through my assessment process, I find which of these archetypes is maybe over or underfunctioning. And then we we work on behaviors and we work on a sequence game plan to help people bring that balance. Because I believe when you have balance across all these spectrums, you reach a higher consciousness. Right. You reach a place where you don't fear anything because you've got you've got psychic flexibility, you've got resourcefulness, and you've got you've got immense ability to handle and to find solutions where you could never find them if you just have two that are overfunctioning. You know, the way I explain it sometimes, it's like it's like you got four four animals and two stakes. And so a lot of times you got two of those animals that that are that are well fed and two two that are starving. So my job is to help people find and rescue the parts of their psyche that are malnourished, and then when we do that, miraculous things happen. Yeah, it's it's freaking amazing. Well, that's that's that's in a nutshell kind of my journey.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and there's a there's a lot in there. So I want to break down a couple things because I want to spend I want to spend some time here in a second really talking about the archetypes and and them because I think that's that's gonna resonate with a lot of people. I remember the very first phone conversation that I had with you. You you you you dove into the practice and the archetypes and the and this consciousness scale, and it uh it resonated with me so much that I I told I I said, take my money right now, I'm gonna drive down the basically because I was like, I I need this, I need this in my life right now because you basically were you never met me and you were describing me to a T, right? Um But um what I will before we get into the the the practical application of your of your methodologies, I want to talk about your your your journey back to God, if you will. Like, you know, you you you you had a relationship and we seminary, and then you basically something something said this isn't for me, right? And you said, I'm gonna go search for something else. And how it how it came back to to God in spirituality. Like what was that like? Because I think right now, I know with me, and I think even with Esha and a lot of people I talked to, it might not be as drastic of a I am in seminary and I make it all the way back to atheism. You you're you swung very far in both directions, you know, and to to your your religious and then you know, non-religious form, and then came back kind of to that middle in the mist. I think, but last time we talked, you know, you were kind of in that mysticism realm now. Um, but that journey is what a lot of people have when they're going through a spiritual awakening. It's it's the questioning of that's right, beliefs. Um, and it might not even be a new questioning of beliefs, but it's now that they're able to speak their truth, they're actually going down that path to say, this is something that hasn't set with me this entire time, and I'm gonna explore something possible. And then there's that that voice in your head, that ego voice, that conditioned voice that says, You're a bad boy, you're wrong, you're wrong for what you're doing. You know, you shouldn't be doing that. You know, that's a sin for even questioning that. So I can't imagine the the internal struggle and journey that you had during that swing. And then obviously, once you exhausted things on the atheist side, you said, Hey man, I'm gonna come back to it. So I'd love, I would love to hear kind of a little bit more detailed if you if you don't mind sharing about that that journey and and the internal struggle for you on that.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. You know, and so much, it's so cool hearing, kind of hearing some feedback because so much of what I do is is is fully based on my spiritual journey. It's based on my it's kind of the the the nuggets and truth I picked up along a long path. So much of so let me first give a framework of the of the the four archetypes because I think it'll help frame the this discussion because whatever you think is the discussion. I can't answer the question of spirituality without the four archetypes because it's so the language I I use as as I'm as my path. So the basic story of humanity, okay. So humans have been around. So as I again in my 20s, I was deep in the heart of conservatism, and I was in a in a very um in a in a belief that you know that that that there a theistic framework, that there's a God, there's a heaven, a hell, that that we're born we're born bad, worthy of worthy of punishment, but good news Jesus saved us. Right. And and I I tried hard to make that that framework work for me. But the more I studied psychology, the more I I educated myself on history and just the brain, and and uh the more I I couldn't make that work. And uh, and so my my journey was that you know as I began to to trust my thinking, trust my instincts, which the Christian church historically has tried to suppress instinctualness, they they call it the flesh, it's kind of like this the thing you need to banish. Yeah, but what what I what I discovered at the end of the journey is that you know that that instinctual self, that the the what Freud called the id is at the base not only of the brain of our psyche, but it's at the base of spirituality. It's it's where nature is found. And so for if if if you do a timeline of how long Homeosapiens, our breed, have been around for, it's about 200,000 years. Okay, the world's been around what four billion years, right? Okay, and then there were so just if you like draw a map of like 200,000 years, and then then you do a map of okay, when did when did organized religion come onto the scene? It's like four to five thousand years ago. So like that means like organized religion is like a baby, yeah, it's a young, young incarnation of knowledge. Then you do how long has science been around, that's an even bigger baby. That's like eight, like six to eight hundred years, right? And then you look at how long has psychology been around. Not at you're looking at a hundred years, right? Look at when we're talking so so that means for 99 for 99 human history was was before the realms of religion, science, or psychology. So right, and they didn't history alone. There's there's something like and but see, no one talks about that, no one talks about it, no one but see here here's the thing our anthropology shapes our psychology and our spirituality. So we're missing the boat here if we don't have a good, robust understanding of of anthropology, yeah, which means that for most of human history we lived in tribes, we were in touch with our instincts, connected to the land. You know, we were on the edge of extinction and we were we were in a survivalistic place. And there were also other humans that weren't weren't Homo sapiens that were around for far longer who were who were close to the land as well. So there's a lot there, and it's really exciting, yeah, because when we when we lose touch with that, we lose our brain fragments. Like, why is it that if if if you go to a third world country, there's far more trauma, far more stress, far more, there's far less psychology resources, far less you know, money. But why is it that people over there tend to have more resiliency and they're and the the suicide anxiety and depression rates are much lower? Well, I would argue that it's because they're in touch with this this instinctual primitive intelligence, right? They have to survive because they have to be their frontal cortex doesn't fragment. So most of psychology doesn't even talk about this. If if you study psychology, their assumptions are based on modern and postmodern thinking, which is that the human brain is a is a the the symptoms are based on the brain or on bad thought patterns or trauma. Whoa, there's a lot more to this story than that based on history, right? So I so for me, that's the basis of my spirituality is this this story of us coming from earth and being connected, and they there's this this instinctualness, this ancestral DNA that's within us that if we can tap into that mofo, yeah, holy shit, man! Like you unleash a power, a resiliency, and a mindfulness, and an instinctual presence that you'll never find through just sitting on a couch and meditating, shit like that. No, no, no, no. That's that's why I use things like cold therapy, breathing to kind of tap into that stuff. So anyway, I'm getting excited. You're getting excited.
SPEAKER_02:When I listen to you talk about this, I get jacked because I I didn't realize you had a big sports background, but like that's what like that's that's what like it's perfect because you talk about this like you're like a coach getting ready to get somebody revved up for a game, like right before. Like, I'm ready, like after I talk to Bill Water about this stuff, I'm ready to run through a wall.
SPEAKER_01:You know, Nate, it's it's I see it every day in my work, and I see it more and more. You know, like we are humans. I I I gotta keep going back to anthropology. I'm sorry. No, humans, okay. Humans are we are a half chromosome away from from a chimpanzee. Let's just let's just kind of like let's just kind of play with this idea. So we the here's here's the base of the human brain. Okay, the human brain is like a circle. Just imagine a circle. You've got three sections. The back of it is the is the crocodile brain, which has been around for billions of years, the middle of it is the is the mammal brain, been around millions of years, and the front part is the frontal cortex, been around a couple hundred thousand years. Now, through evolution, that that frontal cortex was was the last to develop. So that means our theories need to be based on nature, and we need to make sure we're we're getting into we're going from the back to the front. Modern day psychology does typically front front to front. With there's there's some emphasis on trauma that will go to the back, but there's the only way to the to the back is is not through words. That that's all counselors have is words, is trauma, stories. So we we need so spirituality is instinct is finding ways to tap into instinctual presence, mindfulness, and we need a stimulus of fear to help people tap into that and root deep within them. And I think that's that's what lots of the great yogis, and actually, Esha, I'd love to hear some of your thoughts on this. I know you've been on a heck of a journey, because lots of the yogis would go to the Himalayas to meditate in the cold because it would drive them deeper to that place of instinctual presence. And then it was from there that that they would get to to nirvana and enlightenment faster. But anyway, uh Esha, I'd love some thoughts on on this as I'm chatting about it.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, well, I have a lot coming up as I'm listening to you talk because um there's so much of what you're saying that makes sense. And I think for so many people it may not make sense. And I think in very simplistic terms, what you're trying to say, and I think what your model shows is don't be at odds with your humanity. Right. It's like when we're at odds with our humanity, that's when we become fragmented. And it's this type of sometimes associate psychology that doesn't help to sort of bring us back to this, this this core center of who we are, right? And part of that is that you know, the yogis and the Himalayas, the meditation, the mindfulness, what we're really doing, and I hope at some point this is what psychology would help us do, is to transcend our our identity, right? Because it's the attachment to our identity that actually gets us into trouble. And um so being in a society, especially in our current current culture, where everything is about an attachment to an identity, right? And we are so far away from wanting to be human, right? It's like I want to be this other thing. I don't want to feel pain, I don't want to feel discomfort, right? But part of the human journey is all of that. And so when we are trying to control this experience of humanity, we're being at odds with our humanity. There they can be no flow. It's like the Tao, right? What's the best way to be in harmony with everything is to be reminded of yourself as pure nature. And I think your archetypes, it helps to bring that blossom in of all of these aspects of ourselves. It's the reminder that, hey, don't be at odds with your humanity. You need all of these different aspects of yourself to be in harmony, right? And how can we be in harmony versus being a fragmented um being, right? Because our true being can never be fragmented in the first place. And this is what the yogis know. And I think even your um your experience when you went to the Yogananda ashram in California, right, helped to deepen that experience and awareness for you, right? We're bringing that aspect back. And I think um this is the element that psychology is missing. And I loved what you just said in terms of you can't heal people with words. They they help to a certain point, right? But it's linear. In order to get to true health uh healing, we need to move beyond the linear.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, absolutely. And let me let me briefly kind of go through the archetypes so the the audience kind of understands kind of the flow. So the the first one is the is the so there's there's these four archetypes. The first is one's the explorer, which is the instinctual self, the the wild man, the wild woman, the part of us that's that Floyd called the id, the animal. This is the part of us that has no fear, that it's it's just like a like a wild cat in the wild, instinctually present. And so when we're able to tap into that and pull that archetype into our consciousness, we we do we we don't think we do. And a lot of times we we overthink our frontal cortex works so hard that we we we lose traction because we're not we're not using the right part of the brain. So that's that's at the base of our humanity. It's what our ancestors used to survive. It's very important. So as but as history went along, once we hit agriculture, this is huge, about 10,000 years ago, we hit agriculture, we saw the the population boom. We now needed a new intelligence, we needed a different way of being. And that's where the soldier intelligence, the soldier archetype comes in. This is this is where most modern-day religions reside, which, according to the history of humanity, it was a very vital and still is a very vital part of the human journey. This is where we this is where law and order was enacted. Authoritarianism, there's the fear of failure. There's there's now this this this willingness to sacrifice immediate gratification for future gain. There's this there's this this this subservientness, this morality, this right wrong, like we shouldn't do this, shouldn't do that. And we needed that in the in the history of evolution. So that's what Freud called the superego. That's the little voice in your head that says, Hey, you shouldn't do that, you should do this. So the most basic foundation of the psyche is that that old metaphor, the angel and the devil on the shoulder. The the uh the devil being, hey, I want this, I want that, that's the explorer, that's the animal. And then the the the soldier saying, Hey, you should do this, you shouldn't do that. And so again, it's not it's not dualistic, like, oh, one's right, one's wrong. It's both ends. So you've got to have both operating, or you're gonna you're gonna be in trouble. If you don't have an explorer, you're gonna be a drone. If you don't have a soldier, you're gonna you're gonna probably never leave your parents' sofa. You know, you're you'll never be able to put it. So you need both. So, okay, so let's just get back in the time machine. As as history went along, about 4,000 years ago, the the um as civilization grew, the the religions were kind of helping shape society, but that that but there was a limit to it. Eventually, as we started moving through the wars, we got to the black plague, and we got to where that there were limits to the answers religion could offer. For example, you know, during the Black Plague, people were in in temples trying to appease God, but they they were spreading the plague. And so people started thinking, hey, maybe maybe it's not God, maybe it's the rats, maybe it's something, maybe it's something in the water here. And so people started to then move into a third, the third archetype, which is the leader, which is where we started to trust reason, rationality to think for ourselves. So only about 600, 800 years ago did we start thinking for ourselves as a species. That's I mean, that's pretty that's like 30 grandparents ago. That's freaking young. And this the leader archetype expresses itself through reason, it seeks power. And thank thank God for that archetype, because that archetype doubled our lifespan. All of us would be the elders of the tribe if it wasn't for the leader. We would all be at the end of our lives, you know, because the the people were passing away in their 40s back before science. And so we need that that leader, that ability to think for ourselves. And then as we get back in the time machine, then we get to about 120 years ago, we saw the movement towards towards psychology, Freud. Now there's this real emphasis on emotionality, emotional intelligence, and we need that too, to be able to be connected, feel whole. So essentially, to summarize, there are these four intelligences instinctual, moral, rational, and emotional. Bottom line, you need you need to have all four. If you don't have all four, you're you're gonna throw your life off. So, my my answer to the initial question of what is spirituality, it's being able to move in between, pull these, pull these, these capacities, these intelligences, these resources out when they're needed at the right time. And when you do, you enter into a second-tier consciousness, which is where you're now able to transcend but include all those, which is which which is where I think spirituality is found. So, example would be there are times when you need one one or two of those to lead this lead the the show. There's times when you need to be in your heart, you need to listen, you need to be in love. There are times you need to be a scientist, you need to think for yourself. There are times you need to work hard and do what's right just for the sake of doing right. You need to you need to put aside your instinctual wants for immediate gratification. And fourthly, there's time to be in your instincts, to be like a wild animal and to run towards those things you're avoiding. The question of is when do you pull which one out? And that's that's wisdom. That's that's awareness, that's enlightenment.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So, Bill, a quick question here. Um, it's it's really nice to have this refresher. Um, and as you went through these these four archetypes, the one that always stands out for me, I and and and maybe you can corroborate this as well, is the explorer type. Like I feel like so many people struggle with this explorer type because of how domesticated we've become, right? This sense of, oh, I can give myself permission to be the wild man or the wild woman, right? Um to sort of, you know, um drop back into um, and I think a lot of this even relates to our sexuality, right? Where there's so much shaman in religion about our sexuality. And so if we have so much shaman um centered around our sexuality, we're gonna keep that explore aspect of ourselves hidden or dampened down, right? And that's a sacral chakra issue, right? And so if we're having balance in that part of our of our persona, that and that creates a massive imbalance. So I wanted to ask you, how many of your clients that you see have where this particular archetype is imbalanced?
SPEAKER_01:I'd say 85% of people who come in, their their explorer is in the shadows, it's locked up. Yeah. You know, Freud, Freud called the id the enemy of civilization, and I would call the explorer the enemy of civilization. I I think that it is the it is, it has been it has been deemed as as bad by religion. It's been that's right. Uh, you know, typically when you're when you're trying to run a family in modern day society, it's it's not welcome there either because you've got there's got there's so many life administrative things you got to do. There's so many people you got to take care of. Again, the the role of the explorer is your self-preservation, your your self-expression, your instinctual being, which is which is really close to mindfulness. I mean, really, it if you if you think about what is mindfulness, then I think the best my the best example is not someone meditating in a room, it's it's it's animals and nature. An animal and nature, even if you're an apex predator, is on the edge of extinction every single day. And it it must be fully and sensually present to survive. And so, but unfortunately, modern day religion, modern day family, just just just living in this world with all the stuff with jobs, everything, um it it it it suppresses that. And I would even go so far as to say I believe most modern day violence, most depression, most psychosis, most things we have, most midlife crises. Again, if you lock up this this motherfucker, if you if you lock up this motherfucker, it's gonna it's gonna get its revenge. This was me, Bill.
SPEAKER_02:This was this was this is the reason that I came to see you because this was the this was this was me. This guy, this explore piece was completely dormant for a decade or plus.
SPEAKER_01:And see, yeah, and see, people have no conception of it. It's it's they have no way, and part of what I do is I I love this mofo. I think I love talking to it, and there's there's a certain dialect you have to use with it, taboo language, talk to it. You saying like that that part responds to motherfucker. It likes it's like it's language, it does, yeah. Like So each of these characters has has a certain value system, but no one talks to this mofo. People medicate it, they they exile it, they like shame it. Yeah, they don't know what they're doing because it it's got the power of life and death in its hands. Yeah. If you do that, it'll fucking kill you.
unknown:Yes.
SPEAKER_01:Or it'll it'll fucking make you alive. People get sick because of it. So I love what I love is I love when people begin to relate to this this part of their psyche and begin to allow it to have a seat at the table. And sometimes you can't do shit about it. Sometimes it's just in a bad situation. But by seeing it, validating it, allowing it to find small ways for expression, especially if someone's in an active addiction, is absolutely crucial for that person's life.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. I I I I love that because I think that there's, I mean, I it's a so based on what your statistics is, it's it's actually a rarity for someone to show up with you and and not have be this something that is that the that is needs work on because I would love to meet the person. What so what does a person look like that that this is fully alive and there's the the additional 15%, like I I just like I said, I I feel like I feel like uh maybe you're even being modest to the people that I know that it's almost like 99% of people the explorers did.
SPEAKER_01:Um yeah, it's really the the the discrepancy is typically that that 15 is typically a partner or family member of of the of the initial person that came in. Right. So a lot of times in like in like helpful situations, what I'll see is I'll see someone who's on the who's maybe who's really strong in the soldier giver, which is more of a self-sacrificial art. Those are the self-sacrificial archetypes, those are the ones that are willing to lay down their life for the cause for the family, right? So, but but then they're feeling really depressed and anxious because they've they've they've muted their voice, they've muted their intelligence, and so now they're wondering, well, why am I so why am I so depressed? I'm like, well, you you should be depressed because you muted half your psyche. Right. So but then on the other end is someone who might have access to their explorer and leader, but then but then they're that they're on the more narcissistic end where they're that they don't have enough. So with them, I'm like, listen, you gotta learn how to shut up and listen. Yeah, you gotta learn how to how to build some empathy, you you gotta learn how to delay graphication and sacrifice some of what you want right now for the sake of the greater good. Right. Gotcha. So people are people are on usually on opposite ends. Couples tend to, when they get in these fights, they tend to be on opposite ends of the spectrum. You got some one who's on the narcissistic end, one's who's on the empath end. Now, I think people need need a healthy dose of both to be healthy. You need a little bit of narcissism, a little bit of empath, but a lot of times people go to extremes. And so what I do is I find where they're not strong, and then I feed that animal, I feed that part of their psyche to help them to begin to become create behaviors that will strengthen them. And then and because the belief is if you bring balance, then you begin to so if you up one, the other will lower because there's only so much time and energy to go around, then a person reaches in a spiritual higher plat higher altitude. Yeah, because now they begin to feel more alive naturally without medication, even though I think sometimes medication is necessary, but it's it's not my it's not the first approach.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. This reminds me so much of you know, very simple of imbalance between the masculine and feminine energies, right? Like if we're too much in the one, we're gonna have issues, right? But if we can create a balance between the two, because you know, two of the archetypes sound very yin, which is feminine, and the other two sound very masculine, right? Um, and so finding the balance between, which is what we're here to also do to claim those two and sort of like a holy matrimony within us, the divine feminine, the divine masculine coming to work together, not at odds with each other.
SPEAKER_01:Right. And actually that that's a and the the other thing I see is that sometimes couples will be on the opposite end where you'll have one couple who's who's purely in the in the rational realm, the soldier leader, where everything is through the realm of thinking, rationality, results. Right. They have very little access to emotion, and then you have the other partner who's full emotion, so everything is through the explorer, through the through the giver. So that that's the divine feminine. And so the goal is to have both access to rationality and emotion. And so I tell people who are highly emotional to do an empirical screening of their emotions, make sure that they're rational, and then people who are more on the on the rational end to to begin the process of identifying and welcoming emotion as as as something that that needs to be welcomed just as it is. And then as people do that, then what's cool is see typical couples therapy gets it all wrong. I mean, I I I've it doesn't work because it's not based on it's not based on it's not the developmentally accurate, and it's also not based on on healthy uh on sequencing. See you go to a couples therapist and you're you're trying to work on the relationship, wrong starting point. That's like going to the end of the story and saying, hey, let's just get this. What we should start with is both people become individuated, have a voice and a sense of self, become responsible, find their purpose. Then the relationship should be, should be, it's it's if they're going in the same direction, it should be natural and easy. It shouldn't shouldn't be hard work laboring. And and then you go to a therapist and you're just you're just having a mediator, and you and it makes it worse because you're there for an hour and then it just blows up, and then you're like left with all this stuff. So anyway, yeah, so I'm a big believer in individualizing first before you try to fix the relationship.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, you know, you said there one thing I I agree with everything that you said, and Esher, the way you tied in the the masculine and feminine there is really cool. I don't remember the guys, the guy that said this quote, but he said that masculine and feminine energy is like the wings of an eagle, and that if only one of them is working, you're just gonna continue to fly in a circle. You know, you've got to have both to actually soar, you know, and uh that that that quote really resonated with me. And that was really what I was struggling with when I first came and saw Bill because I was all soldier leader. Um, I didn't have, and you know, if if you're if you if you've got to be in that realm, what's all about following the rules, being good, um, you know, but achieve, achieve, achieve, always do better. Like you, you, you almost become you almost prioritize those. So obviously you can't go to be the wild man because you're too worried about achieving, uh, because that's too risky. And then you can't be an empath because I can't let emotion get in the way of the data and the and the logical thing. So, but one thing that you said there that I I really want to see, you know, I'm I'm as as as empathic and emotional as this journey has been over the past two years, I still get really intrigued by data, uh, especially when it comes to tying this together. And it sounded like what you were saying there is in the situations where you've got somebody that is uh full-blown explore mode, it's almost impossible for them to be that way in today's modern society unless they have someone immediately attached to them that is the soldier and the giver that that makes up the space for them. So they don't have to have it because you couldn't function in today's society if you were a full-blown explorer all the time. But there's so there's got to be someone that makes up that space. Is that right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I mean, typically if like if like somebody is taking on the role where they're just pure explorer, pure leader, it means that that they have a partner or they have a situation where someone's doing all the domestic stuff, right? All the all the family stuff, all the home admin admin stuff, going to Target, all you know, all that kind of stuff where people like that, going to the store. I mean, there's so much that goes into life that it's not really practical. You know, so if if someone wants to be, if someone wants to fit into modern day society, you know, there's there's certain intelligence that are needed to really be able to balance the the self-expression and the ability to to modify for the sake of the greater good, and you've got to have both, or or you're gonna in or you're you're not gonna be able to, you're not so if if someone's just an explorer, that they would be very hedonistic. And they would probably self-destruct that way. If somebody's only only a soldier, they're gonna be very you know judge judgmental and very like rigid and they're gonna be very insular. If someone's only a leader, then they're gonna be very like stuck in their head. And someone's if someone's only a giver, they're gonna be very codependent and very stuck and probably very depressed. And what what's interesting is that the the research says that people with highest anxiety rates and depression and suicide rates suicidality rates are people who are in the giver category. Um they're they're like sponges, they they they feel everything. And so, and that's that's a lot of the people that come see me, is they're people who are who are empathic, who give so much. So my advice to them is hey, listen, you need to you need to become a Teflon, not not a sponge. You you need to you need to activate the the inner chimpanzee and learn how to not give a shit as much. Because the the explorer doesn't really doesn't really give a shit about people, it really cares about you, and it also doesn't doesn't care about morality. Now that's so sometimes you need to have a little dose of that in your psyche to be able to handle the the brutality of life and the and and the potential brutality of people. Right. Like a a sociopath, a psychopath is gonna look for people who don't have an explorer. Like you're gonna mean so if you have an explorer, you're gonna be a narcissist repellent because they're gonna be like, uh this person is too much trouble for me. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna mess with this person because because the the explorer is so aware, they're like, hey, I see you, motherfucker, I see what you're doing. No, manipulate me, motherfucker. And then the narcissist is like, whoa, shit. I'm gonna go over here where the where the where I can find some some some easier prey.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So if if you want to stop attracting narcissists, you need to become a narcissist in a healthy dose of it. Right, you know, and that's essentially what I tell people like, you know, the whole the word narcissist is given such a bad name. And it's it's not like you become you should become narcissistic, which is like where you just are so self-centric that you you really self-destruct based on your own grandiosity, but it's where you're able to move between empathy, rule following, using your own head so you don't get drawn into a cult, and then also that that sense of following your gut, that that nonverbal self, that that wild man, wild woman that's able to say, you know what, this doesn't feel right. You're no, and I don't need you, motherfucker. It also says that I don't fucking need shit from you. The extreme right, and sometimes we need a little dose of that so that we can actually be healthy. I actually, I would I would go so far as to say that if you can find that motherfucker, you're gonna be the most loving, giving, stable, moral person in the world. People who don't find it, it goes dark, it gets violent, it does bad shit. Right. People who do shootings, that explorer has been in the dark for many years and they fed it, and it's become an animal.
SPEAKER_00:Right.
SPEAKER_01:So if you don't want to be an animal, embrace the animal. It's this paradox, which is connected to our spirituality. Everything without the animal is just it's not even spirituality. It's just that's right.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, yeah. And that's exactly what I was talking about in terms of you know, uh coming back to this, this, this wholeness, this naturalness, and not being at odds with our humanity. The moment we're at odds with our humanity, we're in trouble. Yes, where we're in trouble because we're meant to be nature, we're meant to flow, we're meant to have these moments, like you said, where we we are exhibiting the this the explorer with us. We we are exhibiting all of these other aspects of us because that's that's that's what makes the human whole. It's not I'm just gonna be this one and then I'm gonna forget about the other ones, because then it becomes unnatural, right? When we're not in the flow with life, we're just it's not, it's not yeah. The only thing I can say is it's simply not natural. We become unnatural.
SPEAKER_01:Yes. And I would say this as well. So to get to some practical applications for the listeners. So I was in my 30s, I was I was studying all this stuff, I was discovering the these archetypes, especially this explorer. I found it. I was like, oh my God. So I'm I'm but at this point, I'm at I'm at Wake Forest Hospital, still doing traditional therapy. So I'm telling people about it, but I'm like, I have no way to access it both for my client and for myself. And I'm just like, and I and I'm just like, wow, you know, and so some practical ways to access this guy, this this mofo. Um one thing is giving is to give it to give yourself a voice. And now this is this is sometimes the hardest piece, you know, and so a lot of what I do is based on on the hero's journey, which is the the basis of mythology, that every great story starts with the with the with the protagonist having something bad happen, and then there's this this this call to adventure, this call to leave the comforts of their nest, to go into the unknown, into the dark forest, to go on a search for individuality. And so sometimes this, and it's always risky. I tell people there there's a there's a there's a risk here. You have to risk your comfort. And usually the first thing people have to do, which is the hardest motherfucking thing, is to learn to give voice to their thoughts, feelings, needs, and desires. Now, for someone who may who might not struggle with that, good for you, but most people are terrified because they don't want to lose connection, they don't want to get in trouble, they don't want to cause conflict. So as people begin the process of speaking the forbidden, which is I want this, I like this, I think this, I feel sad. In doing that, you begin the process of the journey. And as you do that, you begin to you begin to to shine light on darkness, which is spirituality, you begin to raise up those exiled feelings. Then you it provides you with jet fuel to begin to do the shit you need to do, okay, to be responsible. Then as you do that, then you'll you'll be ready to begin the process of finding your meaning, finding your purpose. Why are you here? And so that it goes in that order. Individuality. So the hero, you know, the hero leaves the comfort, finds a mentor to learn to be responsible, learn skills, then the hero becomes initiated, finds some their meaning, their story, like why are they here? Then the hero returns to the village, share the gift, and give it to others in that order. So when people try to do relationships or or even find purpose, hey, I need to find my purpose. I feel meaningless. No, wrong, wrong sequence. Sequencing is everything. Or I need to be responsible. I need to kick my ass and start doing some shit. Wrong sequence. You gotta find the you gotta find the horsepower, you gotta find the motherfucker, you gotta find the explorer. If you don't find that, you're gonna fail. You get you gotta find your voice first. That's that's true both from history, mythology, Carl Young, psychology, developmental psychology, spirituality. You gotta find that first. And see, you gotta start there. It's scary though. And then once you find that, then you begin to find energy and vitality in life. And if that's that's that's that's spirituality is vitality, is being able to find that part of you that that's willing to run into the dark and be willing to die for the sake of vitality. And the reason why I do cold exposure is because there's no better stimulus than a fear.
SPEAKER_02:Well, really quick, really quick. I I'm I'm jacked up sitting here listening to you once again, because yeah, I took a quote. But here, but real quick, a lot of people don't a lot of people don't know what cold exposure is. Can you just give them a brief a brief um yes?
SPEAKER_01:Cold exposure is so part of what I do in my in my center is I have a cold tub that's 50 degrees, so it's not like too cold, but it's cold enough to wake up. It's cold, Bill. It's cold. It's cold. And so what I have people do is after they again, most people come in looking for their explorer. So I'm like, all right, like what are the things you're most afraid? What are you most afraid of? You know, what is the fear that you're you're most afraid of speaking your voice with? So it could be I'm afraid to talk about this feeling, that feeling. So then I'll have them look at the cold water. It's a big tub with you know blue water, um, and I'll say, okay, I want you to, I want you to visualize you stepping into that fear. And when the when the cold hits you, you're gonna you're gonna be driven to to you all you can do is let go because the cold, when the cold hits you, it it it it's so constricts all the blood to your core, which why that's why which is why it hurts. But if you can relax, if you can trust yourself, trust your body, trust your breath, and just let go. And just and just as your body relaxes, the the body habituates, and then it doesn't hurt as bad. Right. And then as you go deeper in, it does two things. It drives you through the third eye into your core, which is what all great mystics know. And as you relax your eyes and your face, you you step into a into a non a non-thinking consciousness, which is like a form of meditation, and you kind of ignite a fire, you you ignite a strength, an empowerment is one thing you do. And so it's very empowering when you're in a fear stimulus, but you're not you're not that cold, and you you're like, holy cow, I did what I didn't think I could do. The second thing it does is it helps you to release trauma trapped in the body. So every animal in nature, when he gets hurt, it shakes out the trauma so it doesn't become PTSD'd. Well, humans, because we got such big frontal cortexes, we we don't we're not in touch with our bodies, so we get locked down. And then so the cold almost like pulls out through osmosis stuff when we take control and say, I let this shit go. I don't live here anymore. I come to the present motherfucking moment, and when I do, you become emancipated from your past. Now it's it's not that it's not that that there aren't scars, it's not that you you just go in cold water and that you're forever beyond it. I I'm a believer in trauma therapy, and and I believe that, but and I'm a believer in therapy too, but but there are certain things that that get locked in the body that when we can just choose to let go and trust and tap into that explore, we're able to, we're able to trust ourselves. And that was the biggest lesson I had through developing my business is the universe is like, Bill, will you trust yourself? And it was like, and for the first year, I was like, no, I can't trust myself, right? And then eventually it was like, okay, motherfucker, trust yourself. And then when I did, it's like things aligned. And for me, it was about it was about bringing balance to myself and bringing and really feeding for me more the soldier, more grounding versus bigger, bigger, bigger. And then as it did that, I I escaped a lot of near death blows and a lot of fear.
SPEAKER_02:I uh I can't, I tell people, I tell people that um, and I know we gotta we gotta run here in just a second because we're running out of time. But I told you we get into these discussions and it's like an hour goes by like that. But uh it's this it's this piece of our ancestral DNA that lays dormant that we have no way in our everyday, mundane lives to activate that piece. But when you jump in that cold water, it's a I I think I think that you know our ancient ancestors, they used to that that ancestral DNA that they used to fight or flight, life or death used to happen daily. And it that would that was that fuel. And we don't have any way to trick our our brains and our bodies into believing that this is actually a like a life or death situation, but that cold water, it it bypasses that. That it's such a shock to the system. And um, I mean, other than the fact of all of the spiritual and trauma release and mental benefits, there's a massive biological aspect that I've seen that it increases your dopamine levels by up to 250%. So it's like there's something about all of this even more than just the the um the the applications that you're using it for. It's e it's even greater than that. So um look, we're gonna run out of time. Go ahead, Esher, do you got something?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I just wanted to comment on the cold water. Like as I'm listening to both of you speak, um it it just dawned on me that the the aspect that I run to into the unknown. And I think it's very important that our listeners do understand that the unknown is where we grow and heal, like when we can tap into that aspect. But for me, it's doing psychedelics that's gotten me there. Right? It's like there's there's a there's a similarity between the two, because with whether you're doing um psilocybin or any any of it really, or ayahuasca, you are going into the unknown and you're having to leave this familiar brain, right? This left side, and jump into the other side that we don't normally access, which is where the healing actually comes from, right? So as you were talking, I was like, yeah, yeah, I that that resonates so deeply. And this is why I like doing that work where it's sort of like the deep shadow work. It's scary to move into that domain, but it's also where we're gonna access our medicine, our power, right? We're not gonna access it in the familiar, yeah. The known. It's just not gonna happen. And this is where we are so comfortable and rooted in this known and familiar and this comfortable, but growth doesn't live there. It's sameness.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, the the price of admission for for higher spirituality is is is moving toward the edge of extinction, like every single animal in nature must be. You're you are not above the animals, and if you think you are, you will not do well in this life. So to get to a higher plane, you must go into the dark forest. But you you have to count the cost and go, is it worth it? It could be worth just living a subpar life, but I think healthy fear, looking fear in the eye, and going, okay, if I choose to do this, then I'm gonna live a subpar life and I'm gonna regret it, and I'm gonna be depressed when I'm 60, 70, 80. You know, and I a lot of times going to the end and going, listen, this is and also doing an inventory of how many months you got left. I got you know 300 months left. How do you want to spend them? Do you want these to be spent in fear at lower consciousness, or do you want to be fearless at higher consciousness? If you if you're willing to go on the journey and you're willing to to leave the comfort, but I'll tell you this without the explorer, very tricky to do it. And again, there there's there's more than there's so many ways to to find the explorer. It's not just through cold, not just through psychedelics, you know, people find it through through running, through and so, but but when we tap into that, it it really comes down to instinctual presence, mindfulness at the end of the day, which is uh, and so whatever whatever it takes you to do that, but it's not just mindfulness of the brain, it's mindfulness in the body and just and a sense of ease. And when you find that, then then then you have the horsepower to run directly into the forest, risk death, and and get to the top of the mountain.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, and I'll I'll just put this last piece in that you just said, and I just want to reiterate it. Healing comes through the body, not the mind. We have to be we have to be present in the body for the healing process. It's not gonna happen in the mind. And I think what's so brilliant about what you do in your therapy, it's that it's just because psychology can tend to be just more cerebral and that linear that we spoke about, but it's that you are merging the two. You it has to be a somatic experience as well as a cerebral experience. And then when you bring the spirituality into it, you bring the holy trinity into it. It's like that third piece missing, right? So yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I love it. Well, Bill, dude, man, this has been awesome. I I I it's almost like um you've you've you've reached through the speakers here and slapped me in the face a couple of times and almost realigned me and on some of the things that I'm sitting here thinking about in my own life. And it's like, I know these things, I've already heard this, but it's so easy to fall back in the own pattern. So I hope that our listeners have also had that little smack around the day to say, let's go. Yeah, you only got 30, you only got 300 months left on this world. Let's let's do what we got to do. Um, and then I'll also say, you know, um, this this is, I believe in your method and the so much that once obviously I've had an amazing life-changing experience of it. I have uh had numerous friends come out and spend time with you, whether it be from a personal perspective or a relationship perspective. And every single one of them has left there with life-changing results. So, where can people find you, Bill? What's what's the best way to look you up or find you in the Wilder World Wilder Wellness Center?
SPEAKER_01:You just go to my website and just just send me an email on there if you want to learn more about this. If you're curious, the first step will be to jump on the on a phone or if you're local to come in for an assessment. We can do that virtually. And then we'll we'll talk about kind of what you need and really just just through the one hour assessment. You can get a lot of data of just some things behaviorally you can do to kind of feed this explorer, this this wild, wild man, wild woman that's usually malnourished, and then we'll take it from there. So yeah, they can find me online.
SPEAKER_02:And I will caution you do not talk to this man unless you're ready to change. Uh before because he's gonna be so in tune with what's going on with you. You're gonna you're gonna drive, you're gonna put the phone on and drive or fly to Warsville, North Carolina. It's gonna happen. All right, man. Listen, man, I love you, dude. I I'm so grateful for you for you and everything. And you know, obviously, like this podcast wouldn't exist. Eshe and I's relation wouldn't exist.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_02:So um, I really am so grateful for you and what you bring to the table. And man, I really think that uh you're just scratching the surface with all of the lives that you're gonna change in this with your methodology. So um it's been great having you on, man.
unknown:Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you so much, Bill.
SPEAKER_01:It's it's it's really great seeing seeing this podcast too. It's really cool what you guys are doing. So it was great. Thank you. Thanks for having me on, and we'll be in touch.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, guys, thanks for this is gonna be the end of episode eight. We'll catch you guys later. See ya.
SPEAKER_01:See you guys. Bye.